WWII Veteran Norman Scarth
Norman Scarth is one of many ‘victims turned
starfighters.’
On the left he introduces himself at one of our meetings in Westminster. On the right is the article about sinking a German boat in WWII.
This video is an interview triggered by talking about bent, overzealous or crooked judges:
- 33% of the population are corrupt
- 33% are brainwashed
- 33% are spineless
- 1% are courageous and speak out and are in great danger…
On this video uploaded on 29th October 2011, he is being asked how he’d describe himself.
On 25 July 2011 he was imprisoned supposedly for having tape recorded a hearing in Bradford Crown Court. In fact, at his appeal against sentence on 9th September, Lord Justice Pickford admitted that Norman did NOT record the hearing, as his ‘device’ was not capable of doing so!
Please see
- background facts by a companion
- his ‘crime’ in an Open Letter to Judge Jonathan Rose who sentenced him
- his request for mercy to HM The Queen.
Since then “Team Norman” has formed around a variety of activities:
- the campaign blog Justice for Norman Scarth
- two hearings in the Royal Courts of Justice
- the last one on 25 August 2011 resulted in three refusals with these reasons for decision.
Supporters and “Battle Bus” outside Leeds Prison on 13 August 2011
“Team Norman” also achieved to get the following media reports:
Norman with supporters in Manchester in June 2011
In the blogosphere he started his own site in 2007.
A lot of his writing has been assembled by Sharon Kilby on UK Political Prisoner Norman Scarth
Shortly before his imprisonment he was busy laying private prosecutions in Leeds and Manchester.
Hence his mention on Flying Vet challenges South Wales Police.
Since his imprisonment, he has been reported by
- John Hemming MP – Six months for recording a court hearing – Norman Scarth
- Anna Raccoon – United by the Cenotaph
- Cranmer – Norman Scarth, 85-year-old war hero, abused at Her Majesty’s pleasure
- Salford Online – Video: Salford protest against jailed OAP
- Yorkshire News – Supporters gather at jail for 85 year old campaigner Norman Scarth
- Escapee’s Blog – Norman Scarth – more from 2011-08-13 demo outside Leeds Prison
- forargyll.com – Act of judicial madness sees Arctic Convoy veteran jailed for being deaf
- collymore.over-blog.com – The Lunacy of Unaccountable Power
- Lincolnshire Voice — with the Russia Today video and More Demonstration Photos from Saturday
- and on BBC Radio Leeds.
The online petition to Free WWII Veteran Norman Scarth from 
Leeds prison published on 12 August has gathered over 1,000 comments from more than 2,500 signers. Its analysis resulted in
On 23 August he wrote:
The Prison Governor & staff have been doing everything they can to stop me appealing. However, after 4 1/2 weeks I have managed to get my Appeal & “Application for Bail Pending Appeal” in the post today.
Back in the days when my knowledge of corruption was only about the civil courts, I said “The worse they treat me, the better” (in that it would be proof of the truth of my words). The same is even more true now…
This video was recorded before and after he was released.
Here’s the account of the appeal hearing on 9 September 2011 at the Royal Courts of Justice – by a close observer and supporter of Norman:
THE HEARING
Norman’s appeal against both conviction and sentence was listed for hearing and heard in Court 5 at the Royal Courts of Justice Strand London WC2 on 9 September 2011 at 10.00 am in the Court of Appeal (Criminal Division).
Also listed was his previous Habeas Corpus application as a Divisional Court, and it emerged later that this was so due to a technical hiccup made by Mr. Justice Wyn Williams at the end of the second hearing of Norman and Chris’s application for the Writ.
The court was presided over by Lord Justice Pitchford, sitting with Mr. Justice Wilkie and Mr. Justice Holroyd.
Maurice Kirk was at the hearing, along with the Musas. I believe that there were other supporters of Norman from Leeds and other places all over the country also present, and it was a packed court.
From the commencement of the case,there were two goon court security guards at both entrances to the back of the court.
Norman appeared by video link which was switched on before the hearing began.
The proceedings began by the Associate in court asking Norman, “Are you Norman Scarth” and he asked this several times, as Norman appeared to be having difficulty in hearing what was said properly.
After several requests from the Associate, Norman stated that he was “Norman Scarth”.
At the start of the case, Lord Justice Pitchford was extremely hostile, and Norman was represented by Mr Waldman from Doughty Street Chambers.
Lord Justice Pitchford produced the pen that had been confiscated from Norman at the hearing, and told Mr Waldman that it had both audio and camera recording facilities.
He made it sound that it had all been pre-calculated, and I took this as an indicator that the appeal was going to be dismissed.
It also emerged that Norman had also took photos of the Judge and the prosecuting counsel,and all of the data on the pen had been downloaded. Lord Justice Pitchford indicated that this had been deliberate.
Lord Justice Pitchford also stated that all members of the court had viewed a video recording as well, although I am not sure whether this was from Norman’s pen.
Chris Jarvis also served amended Grounds of Appeal and Skeleton Argument on the court and briefly addressed the court that he was Norman’s McKenzie man regarding the Habeas Corpus.
Lord Justice Pitchford asked Norman if he wanted Chris Jarvis to address the court on his behalf, and he replied that he wanted Mr Waldman to address the court on his behalf as his counsel.
There then ensued argument relating to whether there was an appeal against conviction and sentence or only sentence.
Mr Waldman explained that he had only had a brief conference with Norman that morning for the first time.
Lord Justice Pitchford told both Mr Waldman and Norman that the appeals against conviction and sentence would be heard together, but Norman applied for the appeal against conviction to be adjourned, so that he could decide which grounds to pursue and take further advice as he needed time to consider the points raised. He also stated that this had been impossible in Armley gaol.
He also stated that if this wasn’t possible, he would seek to withdraw the appeal against conviction and proceed with the sentence, which was the most important issue before the court.
The court then retired and came back and refused the application for the adjournment of the appeal against conviction, but interestingly, didn’t appear to dismiss it, which may have repercussions later.
Mr Waldman was then asked to address the court on sentence, and his main submission was that it was far too severe in all of the circumstances.
He stated that the sentence had to be looked at in totallity relating to the two consecutive three months sentences passed by His Honour Judge Rose.
He also referred to a medical report from a psyciatric nurse to the effect that the sentence was having a detrimental effect on Norman’s health.
He referred to a number of authorities, including the one made against Patrick Cullinane for four months, which was later quashed.
Throughout, Lord Justice Pitchford continued to be extremely hostile, and also told Mr Waldman abruptcy to speak up. I thought that Norman’s appeal was certainly going to be completely rejected.
Crown counsel then briefly addressed the court, and stated that he had supplied a number of authorities that might assist the court.
Lord Justice Pitchford indicated again in a hostile manner that six months might be thought to be a lenient sentence, and again I felt that the outcome was a foregone conclusion.
Norman also interjected again, and explained that he just wanted the court to show him both “justice” and “mercy” and particularly “mercy”.
He stated that the prison was a “hell hole” and had been described as such by the Inspector of Prisons.
Norman also stated that that two days previously, he has been assaulted in his cell by three other prisoners.
The court then retired to consider their verdict and came back approximately five minutes later, and it was clear that they had already made up their minds, and that the judgment had already been written out before hand.
Lord Justice Pitchford then announced that the appeal against sentence was to be allowed, and that the total six months sentence was quashed, and was to be substituted by two three months sentences to run concurrently, which with half remission would lead to Norman’s immediate release that day.
After this was announced, all present clapped. Lord Justice Pitchford didn’t like this at all and stated that if there was a repeat, the court would be cleared, and that everyone present “should remember where they were”, giving the impression that it was Westminster Abbey in the house of God.
I should explain that un beknown to myself, there had been two findings of contempt, for which His Honour Judge Rose had passed two three months sentences to run consecutively, making up the total of six months.
Lord Justice Pitchford then proceeded to deliver his formal judgment, and it emerged that Norman had attended a trial at the Bradford Crown Court, and was in the public gallery with the defendant’s mother.
Norman had been also acting as a McKenzie assistant and had attended conferences with the defendant’s counsel.
The Defendant’s mother had complained to His Honour Judge Rose that she couldn’t hear the exchanges between prosecuting counsel and the judge, but that His Honour Judge Rose had told her to either be quiet or leave the court.
Lord Justice Pitchford observed that this was of particular interest concerning Norman, in view of his acting as a McKenzie assistant.
Norman had also been observed using the pen, and an usher had reported him to the Judge, who ordered it to be confiscated for investigation.
Lord Justice Pitchford then stated that Norman had then used abusive language and had called the judge and all the officials in the court corrupt, and also referred to the usher as a whore.
Lord Justice Pitchford made a great deal of quoting from Norman’s alleged quotes in the court, presumably from the transcript of the proceedings.
It also emerged that the court had been provided with a complete transcript of the proceedings at the Bradford Crown Court.
Norman was also heard to state on the video link “what bad language”.
His Honour Judge Rose had ordered Norman to be arrested, which was done by a Detective Sergeant of the South Yorkshire Police, and was ordered to be detained overnight.
It also appears that Norman refused to attend the adjourned hearing and dispensed with counsel, as he considered that the court was a “kangaroo court” dispensing “corrupt justice”.
There were therefore two contempt charges preferred against Norman, the first for allegedly using bad language in the court, and the second for recording the court without permission.
It also transpired that when the recording was played, it was also discovered that the mic hadn’t been powerful enough to pick up the discussion between the Judge and prosecuting counsel, but had recorded Norman’s alleged abuse to the judge and the court.
THE OUTCOME
Lord Justice Pitchford announced that the sentence was being reduced, because although it might be appropriate for a younger and fitter man, His Honour Judge Rose hadn’t had the benefit of the medical report which the court had seen, and he indicated that the court was indebted to Mr Waldman for obtaining this.
This was the reason why the sentence was reduced to time served, and that no critisism could be made of His Honour Judge Rose’s sentence, as Lord Justice Pitchford had acted in the manner he did on the material that he had had at the time.
In effect, the court has tried to get His Honour Judge Rose completely off the hook and absolve him from all blame for the severe and harsh sentence.
Lord Justice Pitchford also made comments concerning Norman that he wasn’t a person who would purge any contempt, and that in the court’s view was delusional and a conspiracy theorist and against anyone who represented the system.
Many others however may think he has jolly good cause and conspiracy theorists generally prove to be correct.
The court then reconstituted as a Divisional Court of the Queen’s Bench Division and dealt with the outstanding Habeas Corpus application.
It appears that Mr Justice Wyn Williams when refusing the Writ two weeks ago, should have referred the matter to the Divisional Court, under court rules, as that was the only court that could technically refuse the Writ, being a criminal application.
The court purported to rectify this technical shortcoming and then stated that they were dismissing the Writ for the reasons previously given by Wyn Williams.
Lord Justice Pitchford also made comments that such a Writ could only be applied for regarding alleged unlawful detention and that this hadn’t been the case in his judgment.
At the end of the delivery of Lord Justice Pitchford’s judgment, Norman was heard to say “Thank you my Lords! Thank you for showing me mercy!”
The Court Associate then informed Norman that he was proposing to switch off the video link, and although Norman continued to address the court to express his gratitude at being released from the Leeds Armley goal “Hell Hole”, he was suddenly cut off midway during sentence, and the proceedings then terminated.
POSSIBLE RE-LISTING OF THE APPEAL AGAINST CONVICTION
It appears that in order for Norman to have validly withdrawn his appeal against conviction, as this wasn’t done at the very beginning of the hearing, the court’s permission was required, and this doesn’t appear to have been granted.
In addition, he should have signed a Notice of Withdrawal on a Notice of withdrawal form, and as this wasn’t done, the purported withdrawal may be a nullity.
There is also a form for making an application to restore an appeal that has been withdrawn, either validly or not, and this will clearly have to be looked into.
Norman also stated that he was withdrawing his appeal against conviction under duress.
Norman may now wish to apply to possibly restore his appeal against conviction, as it raised a number of important legal issues such as Judges acting in their own cause and “freedom of expression” under article 10(1) ECHR.
Here he writes about Christmas 1943.
And Friendships forged on the cruellest sea in Russia beyond the headlines is about what Norman survived.
Related articles
- Disgusting – the most frequent judgement on Norman Scarth’s imprisonment (victims-unite.net)
- Famous by draconian sentence and imprisonment conditions: Norman Scarth enters the blogosphere (victims-unite.net)
- The Jury of over 2,100 Petition Signers in Scarth HMP Leeds Prison case (victims-unite.net)
- Norman Scarth News as “tweets” from Twitter (victims-unite.net)
- What’s the point complaining? Norman Scarth hits more than four prison walls (victims-unite.net)
- This man needs to be released on compassionate grounds if for no other reason (victims-unite.net)
- Norman @ the RCJ on Thursday August 18 – thanks to Writ of Habeas Corpus (victims-unite.net)
- More marvellous comments to Free WWII Veteran Norman Scarth from Leeds Prison (victims-unite.net)
- 923 Signatures on the Petition Free WWII Veteran Norman Scarth from Leeds Prison (victims-unite.net)
- Norman Scarth on Video in Royal Courts of Justice today – with some 30 Supporters (victims-unite.net)
- Leeds Prison & Governing Bodies are Risking Corporate Homicide Prosecution (victims-unite.net)
- After the demo at Leeds Prison: how to Free Norman Scarth (victims-unite.net)
- Open letter and Formal Complaint from Norman Scarth – 85-year-old WWII Veteran and Prisoner (victims-unite.net)
- Scarth vs HMP Leeds – HISTORY IN THE MAKING (victims-unite.net)
- Partners in Human Rights Activism: Maurice Kirk & Norman Scarth (mauricejohnkirk.wordpress.com)
![Why Everyone Is a Victim [Except Rich Criminals]](http://edm1297.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/ocls.jpg?w=171&h=264 "Book by Evan Whitton")
Aug 30, 2011 @ 08:14:27
Aug 30, 2011 @ 19:01:49
Sep 02, 2011 @ 18:03:11
Sep 05, 2011 @ 10:50:31
Sep 06, 2011 @ 11:57:28
Sep 11, 2011 @ 06:58:08
My sense is that Pickford (or is it Pitchfork?) was angry because someone had TOLD him what the outcome was to be on September 9.
“The court then retired to consider their verdict and came back approximately five minutes later, and it was clear that they had already made up their minds, and that the judgment had already been written out before hand.” (i.e. they had been told by higher authorities because we embarrased the whole damn lot of them – even by Russia’s media release and foreign pressure)
Having listened to the hearing of August 25, I also got the same feeling about Justice Williams – that all was prepared previously. However, in this particular case, i.e. Sept 9, I feel that Kenneth Clarke or somebody had directed the outcome which is why Pickford was so angry . We had been putting a lot of public pressure on government, prison officials, and the Ministry of Justice – also the Queen – so he was a bit cornered, wasn’t he?.
Consequently, my sense is that the efforts of TEAM NORMAN – i.e. attacking on ALL FRONTS was the key to the result. I bet Norman could tell us a thing or two about military tactics. Personally, I don’t feel that putting one foot in front of the other and then waiting for results is the answer; we have to analyse ourselves and take stock of our abilities and talents to determine how best we can contribute to a multi-front attack on corruption – and do it! Be vigilant for saboteurs who are government agents. Don’t be fooled.
There is a lot of talent in video production, for example. Not only that, but EVERY SINGLE PERSON (almost) recognized what they could do and did it. Tracey, Norman’s niece, was fantastic – photocopying documents and visiting Norman – talking to him on the phone and relaying information accurately. She and Ann Malaby were key players in getting information out of prison – and professionally.
The main thing to remember is that people have connected with their hearts and searched inside themselves, asking “What can I do?” …………and then they did it
Let’s do it again. We are making inroads.
I think that everyone in Team Norman saw things from different angles and contributed in all different ways. I also think this was the key, because we launched a multi-faceted attack on the judiciary and government, and cornered them. They had nowhere to go on this, and the prison officials are all paper-trailed now for their abuses against Norman.
The problem is that, it is not just the prison officials and government with respect to Norman.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ACCOUNTABILITY WHATSOEVER OF ANY PUBLIC SERVANT IN THE UK, AND I DO BELIEVE THAT IF THERE ARE TO BE ANY MORE PETITIONS, THIS SHOULD BE A FOCUS AND THE WORDING SHOULD BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED.
AT THE MOMENT THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL PUBLIC BODIES EITHER IGNORE EVERYONE, OR JUST THUMB THEIR NOSES AT THE PUBLIC BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES UNTOUCHABLE.
WELL THIS HAS TO CHANGE. THEY ARE SCUM IN MY EYES.
What does everyone else think?
I also think that it was wonderful that Tracey met Norman with a bottle of wine. I would have been ecstatic to have been there to see him come out of the prison gates and throw my arms around him. Fortunately, Chris or someone from Team Norman, Leeds, ensured that there was media coverage. Tracey obviously showed much forethought and strategic planning about media relations and publicity – by planning that bottle of wine for the photographer.
Well done! That’s good strategic thinking, and we need more of it.
WE ALWAYS HAVE TO ANTICIPATE AND PLAN AHEAD. GOOD ON YOU LEEDS.
One of my ancestors was deported to Australia. Remember that, in the 1800s, the masses were poor. This man stole 1 lb. of sugar and 1 cwt coal.
One day, we will look back at the man who was sentenced to six months in prison at the age of 85 for ATTEMPTING to record a PUBLIC court hearing.
We have to make this a landmark in British history. I am sickened.
I think the biggest lesson to learn from this – and Norman has been expounding it for a long time – is that TEAMWORK WORKS. We know who the saboteurs are, and the rest of us should take note and continue help each other. I do feel that the WE ARE CHANGE people have led the way in unselfishness and ego suppression …………but that’s the Northerners for you.
As time passes with each successive generation, they will forget what happened in Nazi Germany. NOBODY stood up for the Jews until it was too late. You all know what happened next.
In this case, we STOOD UP, and we can be proud. We just have to get the SHEEPLES to wake up.
During the American Civil War, it was the poor Lancashire cotton workers who went on strike to support the abolition of slavery. Think of it – they were poor and near starvation themselves, but they knew what was right, and they made sacrifices. I do believe Lancashire and Yorkshire, in particular, have come through again for Norman, in this case. It’s in the blood.
Well done, kids. Well done everyone – except those who never even signed the petition, and who said libelous and nasty things against the people who worked so hard to help Norman. You know who you are, you maleveolent influence within the group. Hang your heads in shame. All you did was criticize. You should leave the group, quite frankly. Nobody wants to help you in the future. YOU ARE DEADWOOD.
When Norman asks for their names, I will give them freely – especially Les Agents Provocateurs who think we don’t know what they are doing and who they are working for.
Well done, Norman! At 85 years – - almost 86 – you have again shown TRUE GRIT and shamed the whole lot of us with your stamina and resistance.
I kiss your feet.
Jean
Sep 11, 2011 @ 07:49:11
Dear Jean,
First of all, you’re right: there is no accountability whatsoever by any public servant. This is due to the Royal Charters that Suzon Forscey-Moore researched and that hardly anybody knows about. But that’s behind what Patrick and Maurice call “HM Partnership”: institutionalised violence and white collar crimes. See http://bit.ly/gJOlaK
That’s why our petition “Public Enquiry into White Collar Crimes” is our ‘common denominator’. See http://bit.ly/e29NbC which refers to that invisible line between us and them and works as the ‘fobb off firewall’.
The Berlin Wall came down thanks to the power of the people. This firewall will come down thanks to the power of the people and the internet!
Onward & Upward together:
inspired, empowered and connected!
Sep 11, 2011 @ 13:53:35
It’s funny that you should mention the Berlin wall. I was just thinking about it in this respect yesterday. We can do it if the sheeples will get off their backsides.
With regard to lack of accountability, I think it is due to lack of consequences.
The consequences, in most countries, is that you lose your job if you don’t do the work. In the UK, they must not live under that threat because they are overt about not doing it, from the bottom to the top. Too much job security.
Sep 11, 2011 @ 14:35:18
Sabine – the reason you don’t have many signatures on the White Collar Crime petition is because the wording could be better thought out. Besides which, some people don’t even know what White Collar Crime is. If you reworded it, we would get more signatures. That was the point I was trying to make. Don’t be too proud.
Sep 11, 2011 @ 16:47:48
Thanks for your excellent suggestion, Jean! Have made ‘white collar crimes’ clickable to the definition of Wikipedia.
Sep 11, 2011 @ 17:06:07
That’s not what I meant, Sabine. I mean you can get a broader participation if you made the scope broader.
Sep 11, 2011 @ 21:57:59
Isn’t the truth “sometimes stranger than fiction?” Ignorance of the law is said to be no excuse – but then there are the totally ignorant (And the duplicitous) who themselves constantly want to ‘believe’ what they are ‘told’.
Sep 17, 2011 @ 19:30:07
Sep 18, 2011 @ 13:29:28
Sep 26, 2011 @ 19:48:17
This man is a legend and should not be in prison treated with such indignity. Give him a break for heaven’s sake. Please!
Oct 14, 2011 @ 07:45:16
Finally, Maurice will Face Dr Tegwyn Williams in Court: November 10 - 02 Legal Battles
Oct 14, 2011 @ 09:06:18
Oct 22, 2011 @ 06:35:30
Oct 22, 2011 @ 06:47:54
Maurice Kirk: Human Rights for a Prisoner on Remand in HMP Cardiff? « Escapee's Blog
Oct 22, 2011 @ 07:03:39
Who Governs HMP Governors? Who ensures Human Rights for Prisoners? - 02 Legal Battles
Nov 05, 2011 @ 08:50:22
Nov 05, 2011 @ 11:22:54
Nov 05, 2011 @ 23:29:30
Maurice Kirk: For you or yours could be next « Escapee's Blog
Nov 06, 2011 @ 08:44:30
Dec 10, 2011 @ 09:49:05
Dec 14, 2011 @ 08:46:30
Dec 24, 2011 @ 09:10:42
Dec 26, 2011 @ 07:12:13
Feb 04, 2012 @ 09:58:15
May 05, 2012 @ 11:21:42
Jul 15, 2012 @ 06:24:31
Aug 26, 2012 @ 18:40:56
Nov 08, 2012 @ 21:30:05
It would not surprise me if Norman was a victim of “The Government Directed Pensions Fraud,” a postwar injustice that has been airbrushed from history. Please see short film “The war justification industry” on my website.
Nov 10, 2012 @ 20:59:25
The fact that Governments do NOT compensate for the shortcomings of pension funds and banks is to me the most shocking of ‘public service attitudes’. But who cares what I think and feel…
Nov 11, 2012 @ 21:41:23
Government don’t compensate shortcomings of pension funds as they raid them to pay off the IMF usury scam. To me the only difference between UK governments and the mafia is UK Governments are more skillful at criminality!
Nov 11, 2012 @ 21:50:27
Indeed: they are more skillful at making crimes look / sound / appear to be ‘lawful’…
Nov 11, 2012 @ 22:07:22
It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to believe the governments’ lies. It’s as if they are hypnotized! This condition of mind is said to be “Cognitive Dissonance” whereby a person won’t believe they are being lied to by governments even if they are shown the evidence. This is how Stalin managed to wipe out between 20 to 100 million people and get away with it! People simply didn’t want to believe it! We are enslaved by the IMF / Federal Reserve usury scam. Governments are simply their stooges and have been since the founding of The Bank of England in the seventeenth Century.
Nov 11, 2012 @ 22:58:07
That’s why one of my blogs is Enforcement of Bank of England Act 1694: http://www.edm1297.info
Nov 11, 2012 @ 23:37:56
Today I was watching a ritual based upon the Opium trade, sorry I mean Remembrance Day! The benevolent War Justification Industry was out in full force showing that inspirational military exhibitionism ensures a healthy supply of young cannon fodder. What Norman Scarth’s generation and previous generations actually fought for in both World Wars is hidden behind a façade of patriotic drivel. Both wars were nothing more than a mass carnage of innocent lives on behalf of Banks whose aim has always been to get countries into debt. War is the most efficient and profitable way. Both wars were a psychopath’s dream and extravaganza. Wars are fought on two fronts, the battlefield and most importantly in the hearts and minds of people. The enemy are what people are led to believe is the enemy. We are now told the enemy are a bunch of CIA trained Middle Eastern bogymen. In both world wars and today, people are still unaware who the real enemy is! In fact it’s the same enemy that has been with us for several hundred years! The real enemy are the banks that finance both sides during a war and their stooges commonly known as governments! Until that monopoly is broken and real democratic people are elected that are there for the people, not a bunch of high finance crooks, the world will continue to be torn apart by senseless wars.
Nov 12, 2012 @ 00:11:07
Sabine Kurjo McNeill your blog is brilliant, keep up the good work! You may be interested in my website : http://www.warveteran.co.uk, especially my interview on Truth Radio with Roger Hayes of the British Constitution Group.
Jan 29, 2013 @ 14:05:50